jwb*tap *tap *tap.  this thing on?21:01
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jds2001yep :)21:01
inode0We are prodding for questions now ...21:01
inode0are all the candidates accounted for?21:01
jwbi don't believe so21:02
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jwbthere's david21:02
jwbwas Dimitris joining?21:02
mdomschI know the time zones aren't great for everyone for both meetings21:03
jwbi think we're just waiting on him if he's joining21:03
jds2001i dont see him on freenode even.21:03
jds2001just peeked in #fedora-l10n21:03
nottingit's 4AM, if he's at his home locale right now21:03
mpdehaanyeah that would be a bit harsh21:03
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inode0ok, let's begin thern21:03
mpdehaanhopefully more folks are here tomorrow too21:03
lcafieroI thought this was on Saturday at 1700 UTC.21:04
jds2001lcafiero: that's famsco21:04
jds2001board is now :)21:04
inode0question from ricky: What is the precise function of the board?  What are the greatest challenges that Fedora is facing right now?21:04
jwbthat's two questions.  cheater21:04
mpdehaanNominally, http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Board ....21:04
mpdehaanso perhaps we should instead discuss what we think it should be.21:05
mdomschThe Board exists to remove barriers to contributors21:05
lcafierooops. I'm in the wrong place. sorry21:05
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mdomschit can't dictate work or tasks or schedules, but it can work to remove things which are impediments to people getting things done21:05
mdomsche.g. the trademark policy changes in the works to let Fedora Remixes use the Fedora trademark in a sane manner21:06
mpdehaanIdeally I think I'd like to see it as an advocacy platform to make Fedora better in all ways that it can, and also to vote on the stuff that otherwise can't be solved, but in general, Fedora should run itself by and large making most decisions unneccessary.   Hence the advocacy platform and to encourage the community to be all it can and make sure the wheels are well oiled.21:06
jwblike mdomsch said, i think the Board exists to serve the greater user base of Fedora.  which includes users, developers, translators, etc21:06
jds2001one of the biggest challenges that we face right now is that Fedora remains a north-american centric organization.  We really need to change that.21:06
jds2001Admittedly, EMEA has been growing exponentially.21:07
jds2001But we need to spread that into Asia, etc21:07
mpdehaanNorth American centric, and a bit desktopy centric.  I'd like to reach out to ISVs and Enterprise users more, to help more people in enterprises be able to contribute at work, and let them know what resources things like Fedora Infrastructure can help them with, etc21:07
nottingit is both the organization that exists to encourage new communities and contributors, and the place of last resort for conflicts or concerns among those contributors21:07
mdomschthere have been amazingly few "votes" needed by the board over the past few years21:07
mpdehaanEPEL has been fantastic, for instance.21:08
jwbfrankly, i think that's the best thing the Board could be21:08
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mpdehaanhow can we encourage more of that kind of thing, more outreach21:08
nottingmost board decisions are unanimous. except for codeina.21:08
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jds2001cdoeina was admittedly a special case though, deeply divisive even amongst the community at large. But it worked itself out.21:09
mdomschjds2001, do you see spreading into Asia as a board-level agenda item, or something the Ambassadors should be tasked with?21:09
jds2001thanks to the leadership of the Board.21:09
jds2001mdomsch: both.21:09
jds2001mdomsch: the board needs to find out what the barriers are (if any) and remove them.21:09
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* mdomsch notes the absence of Board candidates or current members from non-{US,EMEA}21:10
nottingcodeina worked itself out mainly from the ideas and work of a few engineers, and the board said 'sure, let's do that instead'21:10
mpdehaana simpler FAS has been a huge reduction in such barriers21:10
mpdehaanthough I still think (and it's a bit touchy) that one of our problems with reaching more21:10
jds2001mpdehaan: agreed, that was the single best thing that's happened.21:10
mpdehaanis ultimately getting Fedora in the eyes of more college students and the like, which represent a huge future contributer pool21:10
nottingideally, the board could find someone to take the role in APAC that max is taking in emea (and the other fedora emea leaders)21:10
mpdehaanand I don't want to see them all go to Canonical21:11
jwbnotting, so appoint someone to the Community Architecture group?21:11
nottingwe *have* had a non-US/EMEA board member before21:11
mpdehaannot sure what other barriers might be, other than needing more "get involved" kinds of docs and help, and asking for more contributions and reaching out to more less-than-tapped communities21:11
nottingjwb: i'm not sure how to make that happen21:11
jwbnotting, or isn't that sort of what Ambasadors are for21:11
inode0followup on this topic from warren ...21:11
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nottingjwb: it is. maybe get one to 'step up'21:12
inode0OK, I have serious commentary regarding spreading Board into Asia.  Having visited there on multiple occasions I think I have identified the key reason for our weak participation from Asia.  The language barrier there is much higher than Europoean countries.  The English Fedora message does not reach there naturally without extra effort.  How would the candidates propose to improve this?21:12
jds2001and possibly more localization, as well (of various parts of infrastructure)21:12
mdomschnotting, indeed21:12
jwbnotting, hm, ok21:12
mdomschglezos's work around enabling translators has been fantastic21:12
mdomschbut that hasn't focused on "marketing messages"21:13
jds2001goes back to my comment about l10n21:13
mpdehaanThe Ambassadors thing from what I can tell on planet rocks in Europe.   I see a lot of bloggers from India in particular.   Not sure there is a huge problem WRT message and I think FOSS has fairly universal appeal21:13
mdomsch(nor should it have necessarily)21:13
jds2001yep, we need to get translators (maybe the same translators, maybe not) involved in our marketing messaging.21:13
mpdehaannamely we just need to make it clear where all the easy contribution points are21:13
mpdehaanto encourage people to contribute21:13
jwbinode0, that seems a bit chicken-and-egg, but we need to bolster up some more translators for the Asia area21:13
mpdehaanright now there is a barrier to figuring out how to package things, etc, in terms of knowledge, but not everything is packaging21:13
dcantrellinode0, it'll require reaching out to some interested party or group in Asia and building from there.  Ambassadors are a reasonable idea, but we should figure out what people want in Fedora and try to encourage participation21:13
nottingindeed. i think l10n of website, fas, and the enabling of local groups, ambassadors, etc. can help with more local communities.21:14
jwbthere's also a culture divide among countries like Japan and the US, for example21:14
nottingbut realistically, i don't see how we can get past the barrier where (to pick a random example) this meeting is in english21:14
jwbwhich is where i think Ambasadors play a big role21:14
jwbnotting, yes21:14
mdomschwhere's gdkbot when you need it21:14
mpdehaanI think the language will remain somewhat huge, and unfortunately English is the language of operations on fedora-devel too21:14
mpdehaangdkbot can't eliminate that, as cool as the idea is21:15
jwbwarren, getting news translated _would_ help.  now we just need translators for it...21:15
jds2001but nothing saying we couldnt have fedora-devel-in or something :)21:15
mdomsch#fedora-devel-fr exists21:15
mpdehaanjds2001: as a mailing list, it risks creating fiefdoms21:15
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jwbthere are many language specific IRC channels21:15
mpdehaanI'd prefer universal collaboration without regard to country21:15
mpdehaanthough IRC is great21:15
mpdehaanand help is great21:15
mpdehaanbut not say, devel...21:15
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mpdehaana users list would be neat21:16
inode0Can I interrupt for 2 minutes to backtrack?21:16
jwbif we want to have some translations for the fedora-announce list or even fedora-devel, perhaps we can put out a general call to arms for help there21:16
jds2001right, so how to encourage developers who dont speak any english?21:16
jwbinode0, yes.  you're the moderator :)21:16
inode0nirik asks: can each candidate introduce themselves and their experience with fedora ? (just to see who is who)?21:16
inode0please be brief21:16
notting(apologies, toddler calling, may have to drop off for a few)21:17
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dcantrellI am David Cantrell and I work on anaconda and other things (mostly network stuff).  I have been at Red Hat for 3+ years now and have been a Linux developer in some capacity since 1998.21:18
jwbi'm Josh Boyer.  I've been using Red Hat/Fedora since RH 7.1.  I've been a contributor (packagers) since around FC3, and i've argued on mailing lists for longer than that.  i'm also on FESCo, and usually part of rel-eng21:18
* mpdehaan is the author of Cobbler (fedorahosted.org/cobbler) and co-creator of Func (fedorahosted/func) -- I work for Red Hat (~3 years now) and have been a Linux user/developer since around 2000. Some Unix before that.21:18
jds2001sure, I'm Jon Stanley.  I'm a current member of FESCo (the Fedora Engineering Steering Comittee), and a longtime user of both Fedora and RHEL.  In terms of my contributions, I'm a tad newer, however, I have about 10 years of professional Linux experience (going all the way back to RH5.2). I alos have some experience in other Unices, mostly Solaris.21:19
* mdomsch has been on the board for 2.5 years. Linux developer (primarily on redhat/fedora) since 1999. At work I'm a technology strategist in Dell's Office of the CTO, focusing on Linux and virtualization. I wrote MirrorManager, run the FTBFS process, own ~dozen packages, and sponsor/mentor several contributors.21:19
jwboh, I do not work for Red Hat.  I don't really think that matters though21:19
* jds2001 does not work for Red Hat either, again, don't think that matters.21:20
mpdehaanit doesn't21:20
mpdehaanjust "in interest of full disclosure" :)21:20
mdomschthe questions I missed on the RHCE (6.0) test were about bugs we fixed in 6.1. :-)21:20
jwbheh :)21:20
mpdehaanWe are moving Fedora back to up2date21:20
* mpdehaan kids21:20
mdomschgafton is back...21:21
nottingI'm Bill Nottingham. I've been at Red Hat for a while now... started using it during the RHL 4 beta cycle. I've been on the board for 2.5 years, have been on FESCo as well. I maintain initscripts and a variety of other things, and do lots of other random Fedora stuff.21:21
* jds2001 was delayed in getting RHCE, however is RHCE on RHEL5 if that matters (again, I don't think so)21:21
inode0Are we ready for a new question?21:21
inode0kanarip asks: what do you think of the fading border between "good" and "evil" now that (for example) PackageKit will install anything available from the repositories configured on a system?21:21
jds2001it's not really a fading border.21:22
nottingi'm not sure i understand that21:22
mpdehaanThat's just an app working as you told it to.  Yum would do the same.21:22
mdomschyum will too21:22
nottingyum installs anything available from the repositories configured on a system, does it not?21:22
jds2001Fedora will never carry "evil" (patent encumbered, non-free) stuff in it's official repositories21:22
dcantrelllikewise, what do mean good vs. evil21:22
mpdehaanif we have a checkbox for "use livna, it's awesome" then we fail21:22
jds2001mpdehaan: indeed.21:22
mdomschI'm glad we've found _legal_ ways for people to get at some of the bits that they otherwise might get through other means21:23
jwbthe patent issue is tricky though21:23
jwbagain, this is where being US specific is odd21:23
jwbso i sort of understand the quesiton21:23
jds2001jwb: not really.  Fedora is sponsored by Red Hat, a US corporation.21:23
inode0example of fading border from kanarip: example, double-clicking on a file with a proprietary format will search for the format, install the package and thus fade the border between "good" and "evil"21:24
jwbjds2001, because what is "evil" in the US, might not be evil elsewhere21:24
jds2001jwb: right.21:24
mdomschbut we're still held to US laws21:24
mdomscheven as our users would be held to the laws of their country21:24
dcantrellIf the issue is Fedora getting closer to sanctioning patented software or otherwise forbidden items, I don't think that's happened.  Fedora has done and continues to do a good job of sticking to purely free and open source software for everyone.  However, if we are providing tools that make it easier for people to build on top of what the project releases, I don't see the harm.  Those bits don't come from us.21:24
jwbmdomsch, sure, i understand that.  i'm just saying i can see where the question is coming from21:25
mdomschDell and adobe and skype publish yum repos21:25
mdomschand that's fine21:25
nottingif what kanarip means is we don't have the education/indoctrination dialog that used to be in codeina anymore, that's true. then again, i'm not sure that that really helped as much as we'd like.21:25
mdomscha good thing in fact21:25
jwband i think there's a difference between 'patent encumbered in the US but freely licensed' code and 'proprietary code'21:25
jwbanyway, maybe that is a tangent21:25
mdomschjwb, not really - the board winds up discussing those aspects a good bit21:26
mdomschthe whole debate about including firmware was fun21:26
jwbi can imagine21:26
mdomsch"only if it's freely redistributable" being the outcome of that21:26
mdomschso yes, the board does have to make some difficult choices sometimes21:27
jwbhang on21:27
jwb<kanarip> if you take away the barrier to use the wrong technologies (MP3) rather then get out the message to use Free technologies (OGG), then what is the message your ambassadors should get out?21:27
dcantrellI think Fedora sends a clear message of where we stand on the forbidden items, but part of the project is to provide tools for people to build systems that suit their needs.  If someone in Hungary wants to build a fully MP3 enabled Fedora-based distribution for use only in Hungary, we should not actively prevent that.  We can provide tools like PackageKit and such that make life easier for Fedora users.21:27
mdomschI'd like to think we balance both the needs of our users, and the need to remain compliant with applicable laws21:27
mpdehaanI agree with dcantrell on this one.21:27
* jds2001 does as well.21:28
jds2001(agree with dcantrell)21:28
mpdehaanit's kind of like the LGPL basically21:28
mdomschwhich is why the board took on the secondary mark (remixes) issue21:28
mpdehaanwell, not really, but anyway :)21:28
mdomschthey can do that, and even call it a Fedora Remix21:28
nottingw.r.t. kanarip's question - the barrier is still there. it's actually harder w/o codeina, as you have to enable a repository that will carry that gstreamer codec somehow.21:29
jds2001and we provide no instructions or indication on how one might do that.21:29
jwbso to answer kanarip's "what direction should ambassador's take" question, i'll agree with dcantrell.  i don't think Fedora is a platform for forcing users to choose only free software21:29
jwbwe obviously prefer it21:30
jwbwe won't include proprietary software21:30
mdomschkanarip, we couldn't continue to ignore our user's needs to use proprietary formats.  Mozilla pulling ogg into firefox native is a great idea to help though.21:30
jds2001However, ambassadors should also not promote illegal conduct.21:30
jwbbut it's ultimately up to the users to decide for themselves21:30
mpdehaanAmbassadors should definitely talk about why free is better21:30
mpdehaanand they do ...21:30
mdomschfor whatever reasons (political, business, ...) ogg isn't used as widely as some of the other formats21:30
jwbmdomsch, 'momentum' :)21:31
nottingmdomsch: depends on the market. ogg's pretty prevalent in games.21:31
jds2001so, me, as an ambassador in the US, im not going to go around saying "use rpmfusion, it's great"21:31
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mdomschnotting, Wii/PS3/Windows games though?21:31
mpdehaanhonestly my car firmware is proprietary21:31
mpdehaanI still have to drive the darn car21:31
jds2001if specifically asked, I will talk about it and why it's evil.21:31
mdomschMicrosoft today announced their market share was down - they're only present on 90% of all "computers"21:31
mpdehaanthough we fight battles where we can21:31
mpdehaanand promote goodness everywhere21:32
mdomschLinux and Apple were listed as running the other 10%21:32
jds2001however, im sure they think they're present on this one.21:32
jds2001because i paid windows tax on it.21:32
inode0Ok, let's move on now to another question ...21:33
dcantrellambassadors should answer questions like, "what about mp3 support?" with why Fedora doesn't ship it, what alternative we provide, how that's better, and then ultimately what users can do should they want MP3 support (as well as why that's not really good)21:33
jds2001but that's completely different topic21:33
inode0First one comment21:33
inode0comment from warren on Fedora Asia discussion: If you need a serious question, I feel that nothing "new" or "different" was stated to solve the Fedora Asia issue.  I hope that my Fedora overlords keep that region in mind and put effort into it.  Not saying anything new does not inspire confidence.21:33
jwbi have a response to that21:33
jwbwhat does warren need the Board to do that he and others can't?21:33
mpdehaanUltimately I think anyone could champion that, we just have to make it possible.  That is how nearly all things work with Fedora.21:34
jds2001we talked about more l10n on the marketing side, for one.21:34
jwbtell the Board what you need and why you can't achieve it yourself, and i'm almost 100% certain they will seriously look at it21:34
mdomschthe board can lobby for resources  - Max managed that as board chair to get himself moved to europe21:34
mdomschthe board can't make every contributor multi-lingual21:35
jwbmdomsch, sure.  but the question said "i saw nothing new"21:35
jwbso, if what the Board has done in the past isn't working, they need to know why21:35
jds2001can everyone look at -public?21:35
jds2001warren has something to say....21:35
mpdehaanI really don't have enough info on what the root problem is21:35
dcantrellwarren: Asia expansion has to grow from improving project exposure.  more representation at events, etc.  like mdomsch just said, maybe it's a matter of putting someone in Asia specifically to increase Fedora exposure and get the ball rolling.  but I think a more detailed idea of what the project wants rather than "Asia expansion" should be in order21:36
jwbmpdehaan, right.  that's sort of what i'm getting at21:36
mdomschI would welcome nominees from non-US/Europe - or people with that experience. I admit I have mostly US experience.21:36
mpdehaanFind people that are interested and talk to them about it, ask them what they think we could do to improve.21:36
mpdehaanshare that with everyone and ask who else they know who is interested, etc21:37
inode0Let's move on and revisit this issue in a serious way (my feeling about it)21:38
jwbwe aren't being serious?21:38
mpdehaanseriously if this is a percieved problem, fedora marketing list21:38
mpdehaanopen it up to everyone21:38
mpdehaanit doesn't need to be just a board topic21:38
inode0this is serious, but I think we've spend enough time on it for this venue21:39
inode0ianweller asks: Is the Fedora wiki good for Fedora, what is your perceived purpose of it, and what have you thought of the handling of the wiki process by Docs?21:39
jds2001which is why I originally said that it's *both* an ambassador and board issue.21:39
jds2001I think the wiki is fine.  The search functionality could use improvement, however, I'm aware there's active work going on in that area.21:40
mpdehaanDocumentation is good but Wikis tend to disarray or become out of date as they grow larger and over time.   I think it could use some organization and cleanup.   Docs are critical to new contributers and users and we need all we can get.21:40
jwbi think the wiki is under-used in general21:40
mpdehaanalso a good home page and intro experience that is less like a Wiki may be better for new users21:40
nottingi think the wiki organization needs improved, and i'm glad that people are working on it21:41
nottingif that fixes the search, good. if it doesn't, we may need to investigate alternatives21:41
jds2001search functionality will be improved by organization, actually21:41
nottingbecause (IMO) the search isn't good enough now21:41
jwbbut i think the Docs team does a really good job at gardening of it, and the content is improving21:41
mdomschwiki tending is a thankless and largely invisible task (unless you do something that angers people).  The board can do more to recognize individual contributors for some of the things they do.  stickster did a good job of this in the pre-F10 release blog.21:41
mpdehaanyou mean Google?  :)21:41
jwband yes, the search sucks21:41
dcantrellI think the wiki is great for non-changing information or moderately changing information, but I think too many pages have been set up that are better suited to blogs.  But that's an issue that can be solved.  Cleanup is good, but we shouldn't ask new contributors to work on that.  :)21:41
jds2001we are starting a blog platform in FI, I've heard in the last few days21:42
jds2001I'm afraid I do21:42
jds2001don't know much more than that or what it would be used for or by whom.21:42
mpdehaanhaven't heard about that.  Fedora Infrastructure in general rocks though.21:43
mpdehaanone of the things I think we really need to do is to find more ways to tell people about Fedora Hosted21:43
mdomschFI is investigating adding a blog, yes, mostly because news.fp.o would like to have one.21:43
mpdehaanI see some good stuff go to less community oriented stuff like code.google.com or launchpad21:43
mpdehaanand they are missing out on a great collaboration platform and community21:44
mdomschonce it's in place for news.fp.o, extending it so it can be used by contributors should be straightforward21:44
mdomschlaunchpad will be open source in a year's time21:44
mpdehaangood for them21:45
mdomschnot that it's necessarily the right choice until then21:45
mpdehaananyhow, FI rocks for having wicked support, which I imagine they don't have21:45
jwbhow did we morph into launchpad discussions?21:45
jds2001why would it be the right choice even then?21:45
mpdehaanit wouldn't :)21:45
mpdehaanthese are not the droids you are looking for21:45
mdomschLP does do a decent job of bug tracking across multiple bugzilla / trac /... instances21:46
inode0ianweller follows with: how can/will the board members help with getting the wiki organized, or will they leave that burden on Docs and me?21:46
mdomschwhich is something people have bemoaned bugzilla about for years21:46
jwbintegrate with the SIGs and groups and discuss wiki maintenance with them21:46
mpdehaanianweller:   I think you can advertise the funness that is wiki editing and see who bites :)21:47
mpdehaanand also ask those who own topics to edit the topics they know about21:47
mpdehaanto keep them updated21:47
mpdehaanlike the virt stuff is probably growing stagnant in some areas, I'd bet21:47
mpdehaanand we know lots of folks who could help with that21:47
mdomschianweller, we don't want you to get burned out; it's more work up front to get a group of people to do it together (SIGs), but worth it in the end.21:47
jds2001it is, I've seen emails on f-xen about that.21:47
mdomschWe burned through several people doing mirror list management before I took it on and wrote MirrorManager.21:48
jds2001ianweller: that way, you evreentually net yourself out to zero (which is what's good)21:48
nottingianweller: attempt to promote the gardening effort to other people. i would be dishonest if i claimed to have time to do much actual gardening myself21:48
mdomschNow Adrian Reber has stepped up as a very capable mirror wranger and helped spread the load.21:48
jds2001and simply support those poeple.21:48
jwbthere is no silver bullet for docs21:48
mpdehaanonly werewolves21:48
inode0I have two more questions in the queue I want to be sure to give you all time to respond to so let's move to the next one now.21:48
inode0nirik asks: if you could only get one thing done in your tenure as a Fedora board member, what would it be?21:49
jwbthe same things i would do not as a Board member21:50
jwbthe Board isn't a forum for personal issue advancement21:50
dcantrelluniversal healthcare21:51
jds2001jwb: +121:51
dcantrelloh wait, wrong town hall21:51
jds2001$700 billion bailout for every contributor :)21:51
nottingi would like to promote contributors to stretch out of their comfort area and helping in more places. we get contributors who stick to their spot, whether it's just maintaining their 3 or 4 packages, writing their doc, maintaining their server, etc. i want to see more cross-pollination - desktop and server, developers and documenters, art and infrastructure. looking towards the community as a whole21:51
mdomschnow it's starting to feel like a board meeting :-)21:51
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nottingnow... how? that's the big question.21:51
mpdehaanYeah, I think my board membership interest is mainly just out of a love and interest for Fedora.    If I can use that to help advocate Fedora and OSS just a little bit better to enterprises, maybe a /bit/ of that.  But it's not a platform.21:52
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jwbadvocacy i think is a common trait among those who want to work for the Board21:52
mpdehaanI think folks are often held back to contributing to OSS at work and that's my #1 thing in the world I'd like to fix (in Linux anyway)21:52
mdomschI have used my board membership to increase companies awareness of, and to a lesser extent, involvement in, fedora.21:52
jds2001and into the right areas.21:52
mpdehaanand encouraging more users to know they are welcome to contribute and ways they can and how FOSS works21:53
dcantrellI think if I only do one thing as a board member, I will have failed.21:53
mpdehaansince that is not easily acquired knowledge21:53
jwbmdomsch, interesting.  i've done the same without being on the Board.  but i can see how the title would carry some weight21:53
jwbperhaps grease skids a bit21:53
jds2001I think we all have done the same thing to some extent.21:53
mdomschit does.  yes you absolutely can w/o being on the board21:53
mdomschbut it gives an easier starting point21:54
mpdehaanBasically we just need lots of community organizers :)21:54
dcantrellif I have to say one thing and attempt to be original, I will say I would like to increase Fedora visibility.  I talk to random people about Linux and they've heard of that, but many people still haven't heard about Fedora.  I think that alone will accomplish more things, maybe gaining another user or contributer, etc21:54
jwbdcantrell, that still falls into 'advocacy' ;)21:55
nottingcommunity organizers. heh. would be interesting to do a study of the obama campaign organization model in the ambassador space, and what lessons can be learned there21:55
dcantrelljwb: yeah, I know21:55
mpdehaanWithout making that an Ubuntu war, I think that's entirely true.   There's a loss of a potential contributer base that I'd like to make sure we have a part of.   Awareness is darn important.21:55
dcantrelljwb: I was trying to at least give a real world example that I've encountered21:55
inode0I'd like to hear answers to two more interesting questions and the next one is ...21:55
inode0warren asks: Could the candidates state any specific example from the past, of how they have encouraged a non-RH company/institution to join or participate in Fedora?21:55
* mdomsch waves at warren on fedorapeople.org and notes where the hardware came from21:56
nottinguh-oh, we're all going to lose to mdomsch21:56
jwbi've been working on promoting Fedora usage, testing, and development inside of my company for a while now21:56
jwbWe've donated hardware to Fedora21:56
jwband no, i don't work for the same people as mdomsch21:57
mdomschand I've encouraged more contributions from people at jwb's company21:57
jwbhe has.  successfully so21:57
mpdehaanI can, sure.   Cobbler is an example of that.   It was created so admins could work together and share tools versus just building their own infrastructure each time or using something a Red Hat engineer built.   The ideas the community generates are what makes it what it is and it couldn't be done without them -- most of these folks are companies contributing on their own time, consultants,  and so forth.21:57
jwbi believe notting is right in that we're all going to lose to mdomsch here.  he's had too much of a head start ;)21:57
jds2001hehe :)21:58
dcantrellI have worked for a while now trying to get IBM to step up and contribute code and resources for Fedora on s390.  While that's not of interest to many Fedora users, it is of interest to enterprise users.  We are just now starting to see large contributions from them.  In October of 2007, I gave a week long training course for IBM developers to show them how to work in Fedora and, specifically, on anaconda.21:58
mpdehaanEPEL and all of it's projects are a huge opportunity for corporate contributions and advocacy21:58
mdomschmpdehaan's got the right idea here too - cobbler's an excellent example.  I'd like to think MirrorManager has been too.21:58
mdomschtools that encourage people to contribute back to Fedora in ways they might not have otherwise21:58
dcantrellIBM has also worked a lot to get Fedora bootstrapped on s390 and that's making some progress, last I saw.21:58
* jds2001 has no real answer to that question, as I don't have the "large company" employers that jwb and mdomsch do :)21:58
jwbdcantrell, they have, yes21:59
inode0Ok, final question for tonight ...21:59
dcantrellyou mean today21:59
jwbi'm glad someone is focusing on s390 because i'm not :)21:59
dcantrelljwb: you're welcome  :)21:59
mdomschjds2001, I also note |Jef| has used his board seat to get more edu institutions interested in Fedora21:59
inode0G_work asks: As a (potential) Board member, which do you support for collaboration on various projects Steering Committees (*SCos) or Special Interest Groups (SIGs) and why?21:59
mdomschand he's not from a "large company"21:59
mdomschso that's far from required21:59
nottingi don't have many good answers to that - mainly encouraging rhel requests to EPEL. and trying to bring internal RH people to Fedora21:59
jwbi don't understand G_work's question22:00
nottingG_work: which what?22:00
* jds2001 not sure he understands the question22:00
mpdehaanI'm not sure SIGs or SCOs are even needed.  I've used /projects/ as a community rallying point in the past.      What is needed is a mailing list and an idea.22:00
mdomschG_work, I'm a huge fan of "getting stuff done" - so I like SIGs in that they don't direct a lot of effort towards maintaining bureaucracy for bureaucracy sake.22:00
mpdehaanby not needed, i mean, "to start an idea"22:01
jds2001mdomsch: +1.  However, there's a point that they're needed.22:01
jwbto be blunt, FESCo oversees the SIGs22:01
nottingoh, SIGs vs SCos.22:01
jds2001I think we've walked the line very well so far.22:01
jwboh a SIG vs. SCos question?22:02
jds2001FESCo officially does that, yes, but when's the last time we've meddled in SIG affairs?22:02
nottingSCos  are better where you have to define policies, or have a... contentious... contributor base.22:02
jds2001with the possible exception of secondary arches.22:02
jwbjds2001, yesterday.22:02
jds2001jwb: I know, that's why I said that :)22:02
jwbjds2001, FESCo has interfaced with the mingw SIG a lot lately22:03
nottingSIGs work well for most other things. although the one thing that sometimes is an issue is determining 'the will of the SIG' from outside when you're trying to get some information about what they want22:03
jwbit happens more than you think22:03
jds2001we've obviously delegated stuff down to SIG's, which is what should be done.22:03
jds2001jwb: of course, I guess I'm just not thinking of it the same way.22:03
jds2001but yes, FESCo does do all those things.22:03
jds2001and I've not personally been involved in the mingw stuff, but am in spins.22:04
jwbi think people put too much weight on the SIG moniker22:04
jwball you need is a group of people interested in one thing and pushing to make it better22:05
dcantrellI don't have anything to add beyond what's already been said.  I like the current designation between SIGs and SCos.22:05
jds2001again, it's really more of enabling them and removing barriers.22:05
mdomschI'm actually glad FDSCo and FLSCo decided not to do elections this time around22:05
jwbmdomsch, yes22:05
mdomschno sense spending time on bureaucracy if it's not helping further the goals of those efforts22:05
jds2001and making sure the ships not sinking, as is the case with secondary arches :P22:05
jds2001(some of them anyhow)22:05
inode0we are now a little bit over out time22:06
mpdehaanLet's move on to important questions.   Who can see Alaska from their house?22:06
dcantrellI can if I squint22:06
mpdehaanI mean Russia22:06
nottinginode0: *shrug* i'm ok for a while more22:06
jwbi can if i look at a map22:06
* jds2001 can see russia, so i've got foreign policy experience!22:06
mdomschif there are questions, I'm game.22:07
mpdehaanI get them confused22:07
inode0if the candidates are up for one more question we have one pending22:07
dcantrellone more and then I have to get back to work22:07
inode0EvilBob asks: Being that Red Hat has it's appointed seats why should we elect additional Red Hat employees to the "community seats" on the board?22:07
mpdehaandcantrell, darn your awesome location with it's great weather and pineapples and stuff22:07
jwbbecause your employer does not dictate your 'community' status22:08
jds2001great question.  It is possible for Red Hat to appoint a non-RH employee, and that has happened.22:08
jds2001and again, your community status is not dictated by your employer22:08
mdomschctyler is a prime example22:08
jds2001notting is no less a community member than I am.22:08
jds2001(for example)22:08
nottingmdomsch: weren't you appointed at one point?22:09
jds2001(or more a community member, for that matter)22:09
dcantrellI think those of us at RH who are running for community seats are more interested in the project rather than representing RH's specific interests.22:09
mpdehaanEvilBob: you're welcome to vote for who you like.  Personally I'm thankful Red Hat is sponsoring tools like Cobbler and my ability to work on them, but hopefully you can see in my actions there in doing things like ensuring tools like CentOS have first class support my interests are in ensuring everyone gets to play in the sandbox.   My role on the board, if elected, would be to serve the interests of the general community fi22:09
mdomschnotting, indeed, at the very start22:09
jds2001dcantrell.  mpdehaan: didnt mean to leave you out :)22:09
mpdehaanmust be I am hiding it well :)22:09
mpdehaanseriously, Red Hat is awesome, and I am very thankful for letting me do what I do, as I am sure all of us are22:10
jwbi don't think making a RH vs. Community distinction is helping the Fedora project in any way, shape, or form22:10
nottingi'd echo what mpdehaan said - you are free to vote for whomever you think would do the best job, regardless of employer, past employer, etc.22:10
mpdehaanyou shouldn't be afraid of "corporate control", we love this distro just like everyone else.  I don't even think of Fedora that way.22:10
mpdehaanthis board election has great candidates, you cannot do wrong22:10
jwbyou could22:10
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jwbyou could not vote for someone just because they work for Red hat22:10
jds2001and doing wrong would be not voting.22:10
jwbor not vote at all :)22:11
jds2001jwb: that too.22:11
mpdehaanputting letters in the voting box22:11
mpdehaaninstead of numbers22:11
jwbhanging chads22:11
mpdehaantrying to vote with emacs and accidentally launching nuclear missles at Canada22:11
jds2001ctyler might be upset if you did that :)22:12
inode0sorry but our time is at an end22:12
nottingmpdehaan: are you saying that you're volunteering to maintain emacs to patch out that possibility?22:12
inode0I'd like to thank all the candidates for their time and thoughts tonight22:12
mdomschthank you to inode0 for moderating tonight's town hall22:12
mpdehaanthank you Mr Moderator22:12
* mdomsch claps22:13
mpdehaannotting: nooooooo!!!111122:13
dcantrellthank you inode022:13
jds2001thank you inode0 :)22:13
mpdehaanvim > emacs22:13
nottinginode0: thank you!22:13
inode0I'd also like to thank all the visitors from the public who provided questions22:13
inode0And encourage all to visit again with the candidates tomorrow morning22:13
mdomschI'd like to get feedback on the whole "town hall" process from participants22:13
mpdehaanlogs will be posted, yes?22:13
nottingand i will probably see some of the same crew again in twelve hours with max22:13
mdomscheither privately, or ideally on fedora-advisory-board@redhat.com22:14
jds2001already are at http://mmcgrath.net/townhall22:14
mdomschdid these town halls help you make a more informed decision?22:14
mdomschhow could they be improved?22:14
mpdehaando we have fancy color code script to run?22:14
nottingbpepple has one at least, i'm sure he'd let us use it22:14
jds2001yeah, it's irclog2html22:15
jds2001i think it's in fedora actually22:15
jds2001if not, ianweller fails :)22:15
* inode0 bangs the gavel and moves discussion to the public channel for after event mingling :)22:15
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mdomschdid anyone count how many non-candidates/moderator were in the room tonight?22:24
mdomsch~19 now22:24
inode0I noticed a peak total of 30, it may have been higher22:24
mdomschcool, thanks22:25
inode0and I noticed 25 in the public channel22:25
inode0I was a bit worried about the small initial crowd but we had plenty of good questions I think22:26
nottingwell, now is off-hours US, and way off-hours EU. might be an interesting contrast w/tomorrow22:31

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